In this episode of Success Unleash’d with Shawne Merriman and Zack Ellison, we dive deep into the evolving media landscape with the one and only Evan Shapiro – widely recognized as the Media Universe Cartographer. Evan has mapped out the future of media with his influential infographics and razor-sharp analysis, shaping how executives, investors, and creators understand the ever-shifting industry. As an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning producer behind Portlandia, Comedy Bang Bang, and Brick City, and a professor at NYU Stern, Evan has a unique vantage point on the collision of streaming, sports rights, creator monetization, and the fight for audience attention in a digital-first world. In this conversation, we unpack the seismic shifts reshaping media, the power of disruptive content, and what it takes to break through in an era dominated by algorithms. This episode is loaded with insights you won’t want to miss.

Success Unleash’d Principles from This Episode with Evan Shapiro

1. Map the Future, Don’t Just Navigate the Present

Evan Shapiro earned the title of Media Universe Cartographer by mapping out the evolving media landscape before others even realized the shifts were happening. The biggest wins come from seeing the future before it arrives.

2. Own Your Niche to Avoid Commoditization

With content becoming increasingly uniform, Evan emphasizes the importance of differentiation. Creators and platforms must develop a distinct voice and brand to stand out in an oversaturated market.

3. Adapt or Become Obsolete

The media industry is in constant flux – what worked yesterday will likely be irrelevant tomorrow. Evan warns against clinging to outdated models and stresses the necessity of evolving with technological and consumer behavior shifts.

4. Free Content is the Front Door, Premium Content is the Home

The key to long-term success in media is a hybrid strategy. Evan and Zack both believe it’s best to use free, ad-supported content to attract audiences, but develop premium, must-have content to keep them engaged and generate sustainable revenue.

5. Bet on Creators, Not Just Gatekeepers

The rise of YouTube, podcasting, and independent creators signals a power shift in media. Evan predicts that platforms embracing creator-driven content will dominate, while those clinging to traditional gatekeeping models will struggle.

6. Advertising is the Lifeblood of Media

Even Netflix, which once resisted advertising, has pivoted to an ad-supported model. Evan highlights that ad revenue remains critical, and any media business ignoring this reality is leaving money on the table.

7. The Biggest Disruptors Move Light and Fast

Large corporations are often weighed down by bureaucracy, while independent creators and startups can pivot quickly. As Evan points out, the ability to experiment, iterate, and execute rapidly is a game-changer in today’s media ecosystem.

8. Leverage Platforms, But Don’t Rely on Them

While YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok offer massive reach, Evan stresses the importance of controlling your own audience and distribution. Creators and businesses that depend solely on external platforms are at the mercy of algorithm changes and shifting priorities.

9. The Future of Sports Media is Up for Grabs

Traditional sports rights are skyrocketing, but second-tier sports, college athletics, and niche leagues present massive untapped opportunities. Evan, Shawne, and Zack all see a future where new entrants – especially creator-led media – disrupt the status quo.

10. Wake Up Stupid Every Day

Evan’s final lesson: Stay curious. The most successful media leaders are lifelong learners, always questioning assumptions and embracing change. The moment you think you know everything is the moment you start falling behind.

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Mapping The Future Of Media: Evan Shapiro On Disruption, Streaming, And The Creator Economy

Introduction To Media Cartography

We have with us Evan Shapiro known as the Media Cartographer. Evan, what is a media cartographer?

A media cartographer is this silly title that I’ve picked up over the last number of years. It came to me because I made these maps of the media universe, these infographics with 125 companies from the media ecosystem sized and scaled by their market capitalization and juxtaposed with each other. It was the first time someone had put together big tech, big media, gaming, audio, social media, and video all together in one space and showed them in relation to each other, so it took off. I make a bunch of other infographics and write about the industry. I’m trying to help lead a path from the last era of media to the next era of media. That’s what a cartographer does, path find. That’s how it came my way.

I’ve been following and I read a lot of your stuff on LinkedIn. Being in the media space, you are always dead on and talking about what’s hot, trending, and streaming. I’m in the streaming business. I’ve seen you talk quite a bit about streaming. Prior when I retired, I’ve worked with the NFL Network, ESPN, FOX Sports, and WWE Network when they launched.

Having a background in that, I am now launching my own media platform in Lights Out Sports TV. I’m constantly reading the things you put out and some of the digital stuff also. I appreciate that. As far as streaming, there’s been so many moves with bundling and different AI that’s involved. How have you seen everything going from linear TV making this FAST transition to streaming?

Streaming Transition & Netflix’s Strategy

You used FAST in there and I’ll pull that in. It’s been awkward. When you looked at what happened, Netflix became the first streamer to use content from all these other publishers. They beat everyone to the punch using their own content so that when everybody leaned heavily into streaming, they had to reclaim their content back. What happened was most of them tried to copy Netflix’s initial model, which was all subscriptions and no advertising revenue. That was probably folly.

You can look at what happened since then. All indications have always been that in order to be long-term successful, you need a combination of affiliate fees and advertising, and if you’re smart, many other revenue forms as well. Even Netflix is selling ads and has sports on Christmas Day because they want to sell ads. They are now getting wrestling because they need to sell ads. They need stuff that has breaks and is repetitive. There was this misperception that we could do it without ads but everybody’s adding ads back and you’re starting a FAST service, primarily. In my mind, the move to FAST is interesting, but when you look at the total addressable market in FAST, it’s capped.

Evan, for those that don’t know, describe what FAST is and how it fits into the ecosystem.

The Rise of FAST TV And YouTube’s Influence

FAST is TV. It’s Free A-Supported Streaming Television like Pluto, Tubi, Roku Channel, Samsung TV Plus, and a number of others. It is free. It is linear in some parts, but it’s increasing. Tubi started as an on-demand service and then added linear. Roku started as a linear service and added on-demand. It’s increasingly looking like a cable platform but you don’t have to pay for it. It’s capped because it has old content on it.

Its economics are not that great without the pay lever. There’s only so much you can invest in programming. Libraries are doing well there. The Baywatch Channel does well and a bunch of other long library titles there. Sports does very well in FAST, but without the subscription revenue, it’s difficult to make that model work.

What you’re going to see is what DIRECTV is doing with MyFree and what Sling has done with their FAST offering, which is combining the free service, the FAST, with a paid service. If you want to pay, you pay and watch that program. If you don’t want to pay, here’s all this free content that DIRECTV and Sling can sell advertising inside. It is rebuilding the old-school cable package with these combinations of services.

You then add AVOD, Ad-Supported Video On-Demand, the biggest of which is YouTube. The CEO of YouTube announced that their number one device for YouTube viewing is the television set. More than half of the viewing of YouTube in the United States is on TV. If you go for younger consumers, it’s 60% or 70%. Most of the content being watched on YouTube is long-form premium content.

That’s a long answer to your question but that’s the state of streaming. For your offering in particular, it’s great that you’re in FAST, but I would also push you hard to lean into YouTube very heavily and have a major presence for long-form premium content there. The addressable audience is substantially larger and, frankly, the ability to generate revenues all over the planet is a little bit easier.

I want to jump in on that and back up what you said. It’s good to have both, to have the free Ad-supported VOD content. For example, on Lights Out Sports TV, we have over 300 sports movies and documentaries. We have 30 different FAST channels and things like that. When you start talking about getting behind a paywall of premium content, that is where you make that pivot.

It’s important to have both because the premium content is what’s going to drive people there and the free part of it is what’s going to keep them there. I was fortunate to be around and watch the pivot while I was at networks and while I was at ESPN before ESPN+ came out and why they canceled the show that I was on so they could make room for ESPN+. I got the back end of all of it. I was fortunate enough to see this market go.

You’re right when you were talking about the free ad-support. You’re capped unless you’re doing extremely well on ads. Your CPMs are extremely high, and cranking on all fronts but you’re still capped. You do need that premium content there that is going to get people there. By the way, once that live sport goes off or once that new movie or series that drop or goes off that’s behind the paywall. They have to keep people there.

You need a free front porch for them to sit on in between those. If you look at what Netflix is doing, they’re buying shows right off of YouTube. They paid Jake Paul $40 million to slap an old man around a boxing ring and paid Mike $20 million. That’s before the production values. They bought Sidemen off of YouTube.

You’re going to see that. They just announced that they’re going to play around with video podcasts on their platform. You’re going to see a free section of Netflix announced before the end of 2025. I’ve predicted this a number of times. I do think they’re moving to start a free section on the front end of Netflix to keep those subscribers who jump out and, frankly, pull in a whole bunch of new viewers who they can then sell ads against.

We’ve talked a little bit about this in the past in terms of what happens to the creators. You’ve got the Jake Pauls’ of the world, the influencers, and the Shawne Merrimans’ of the world where they’ve got an audience. Should they be monetizing that on these legacy platforms like Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube? Should they be building their own channels or what I think is a combination of both using the legacy platforms as a feeder? Once they have that audience, they go into their own FAST chain.

Jake Paul’s a good example. He’s massive on YouTube and then he gets a big payday from a gatekeeper, including Netflix. He announced that they’re doing a show, Jake and Paul Logan together. It’s on another platform. Not Netflix. They hop back and forth. Trixie Mattel is another big YouTuber. She is a RuPaul Drag Race alum who has a massive presence on YouTube and has a big show but also sells two different television shows to the gatekeepers. You’re going to see the artist and the creators.

Dax Shepard had a show that he ran by himself for a number of years and then sold it for $80 million on a limited contract to Amazon. It’s the same thing with Alex Cooper in Call Her Daddy. You’re going to see them move back and forth. Only because Joe Rogan is on Spotify, it doesn’t mean he is not a creator anymore. It just means he’s a smart creator.

Most of the content being watched on YouTube now is long-form premium content. Share on X

The interesting thing is, you look at sports rights. I dropped an episode of my show, The Media Odyssey, which is all about sports rights. I feel like we were in peak TV a number of years ago and that has peaked and coming out the other side. There’s a danger of getting into peak sports where you’re seeing pro darts rights bid up 110%. The NBA rights is up 160% from the last deal to this deal. You look at why that’s happening. Amazon is bidding them up because Amazon is never going to have to show a profit on that one property. They’re too big. They’re a $3 trillion company.

When you look at the last Disney earnings call or their earnings report, you’ll see sports were not profitable at all in the last quarter. That’s a warning sign to everybody. Meanwhile, what’s fascinating is they had a good quarter for net income, so profit ostensibly and 198% of the net income in the 4th quarter was from their linear cable television networks. When asked about this, Netflix said, “Linear networks are a distraction.” Iger said, “They’re not a distraction. We’re using the money to invest in the future. We’re taking these profits while they still exist and reinvesting them in Epic gaming, FAST, Disney+, Hulu, and all these other properties.”

The Future Of Sports Media & Streaming Models

Let me ask you. We’re already talking about the premier sports, the big ones are going to be the NBA, NFL, MLB, and those things. What’s you’re feeling on second-tier sports? How do they come in a market? How do they play with streaming?

First of all, with the change in college sports with the name and likeness contracts that can go out there. You’re going to see a real shift there for the better, to be honest with you. You know this as well if not better than I do, but a lot of our athletic directors are at big colleges. If their game isn’t in the package that was sold to television, they have those rights. There’s going to be a lot of movement around those games.

Predominantly, if you look at Victory+, which is a streaming company that’s buying the rights to a lot of regional hockey or NHL teams and baseball teams. They have the Kansas City Royals but it’s going to be asymmetrical. There’s going to be a big need for it on FAST. Even for a league, a team, or a college that isn’t playing around in FAST, there’s going to be a paid product of extra content. For example, to get access to the team for the rabid fans. I’m an Eagles fan. I will soak up that content wherever I can get it.

There’s going to be a different model for each different sport. The Major League Soccer in France tried to do a bidding war for their last round of television rights and they were unable to get a good bidder. They had to negotiate down badly. That’s a warning. Disney not being profitable in sports is a warning but it doesn’t mean every sport doesn’t have an outlet somewhere to find an audience and be monetized against that.

 By the way, I want to congratulate you on the Eagles’ victory in the Super Bowl. You folks deserve it.

I think they did most of the country some justice.

I’m glad to hear you say that, Shawne.

Ninety-percent of the country was rooting for the Eagles in that outcome, so big congratulations.

It’s the first time I think the Eagles have ever come close to becoming America’s team. You got to like Jalen Hurts at this point to watch that guy be doubted the way that he was and to play the way that he did. He has outplayed Mahomes in two different Super Bowls. You can appreciate this better than everyone. Watch that defense the way that Philly football should be played. It was incredible. By the way, 14 million people watched it on Tubi. 27 million, which was a record but 14 million on Tubi.

Creators Navigating Legacy Platforms Vs. Independent Channels

That was my next question. You see all the bundling that’s happening. There is a lot of bundling going on. What about the simulcast? FOX, who I had great relationships with because I was there for several years. It was one of the most brilliant things they did. Tubi, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, has about 70-plus million monthly users. Tubi is out there for marketing.

What do you think is going to happen here with the simulcasting coming up? The reason why I say this is because for Lights Out Sports TV, we had the East-West Shrine Bowl practices. The NFL Network has the game but we have the practices. We have live look-ins from ESPN and the NFL Network. What do you think is going to happen? How are some of these bigger platforms going to start leveraging the linear side of their business, which is still a big part of their business to build the streaming audience?

I did an episode for my show with the head of 4Studio who’s the digital studio for Channel 4, which is one of the bigger public service broadcasters in the UK. A couple of years ago, I convinced them to lean into YouTube with long-form television shows, the premium stuff. What they’re finding is that it’s two different audiences. They did it and it’s been a massive success. Their viewership on YouTube is up 105% and it is younger audiences who are not getting in their app and are not getting on their broadcast channel.

It’s the same thing for Tubi. If you look at who watched the Super Bowl on Tubi, it’s going to be a much younger demographic than those who watched it on FOX. The reason is I have friends at FOX 2 and they’re not a young person’s network. If you’re eighteen years old, you don’t have a relationship with FOX. Even if you watch The Simpsons, Family Guy, and Bob’s Burgers very often, you’re watching it on Hulu or on another platform. You’re not watching it live on Sunday night on FOX.

Lean into simulcast—air it on your traditional platform for your existing audience, then expand to other platforms to reach a broader audience. Share on X

These has been the evidence that I’ve seen statistically over and over again. Lean into simulcast. Put it on your traditional platform for your traditional audience, and then put it on other platforms for the audience you’re not getting anymore and are at risk of never getting because they don’t watch TV. They watch YouTube or Tubi on TV. I have done this survey. I teach Media at NYU. At the beginning of every year, I ask them how they watch. Tubi got half the class raising their hands for the first time ever. Clearly, there’s a younger demographic that’s tuning into Tubi that’s not going to watch on FOX Broadcast.

Evan, I forgot you teach at NYU. I did one of my Master’s degrees at Stern. The three schools I went to before are all Division III schools are good schools like, Swarthmore College, University of Chicago Booth, and NYU Stern, but have awful, terrible sports programs. Swarthmore has gotten pretty good at hoops for Division III. People ask me, “Why’d you go to Florida?” It’s because I wanted to be part of a top-tier sports school that has a big, engaged alumni network.

I was born at Penn State so I have that part of it but I went to UMass and then dropped out. I don’t have a degree. It has been since Marcus Camby that they’ve been any good.

That was my guy. Do you know who I liked? It was Lou Roe back in the day. He was the guy. Evan, this is a good segue. I want to talk a little bit about your background like what you did over your whole career to get to where you are. You’ve done a lot of cool stuff in media and entertainment. Share some of that with us.

I dropped out of college and moved to New York. I started in theater, live entertainment, and marketing. I worked my way up through marketing. I helped rebrand Shakespeare in the Park. It’s pretty much a very similar brand to what I launched with a great design firm in 1994. I then went on and started my own agency. I helped launch Chicago, and Lion King, which is still playing on Broadway and also John Leguizamo’s first Broadway show, which was a big success.

I then took on television and film clients and moved into TV. I headed up marketing for Court TV and then after a time took over IFC, Independent Film Channel, and SundanceTV. At IFC, I produced and helped create Portlandia. Fred and Carrie came in and they had a pitch and I said, “Why isn’t this being shot in Portland?” They went off and made the show. I was the impetus for it being set in Portland and Portland being the main character.

I went on and did some cool stuff with SundanceTV, including a documentary series about Cory Booker when he was mayor of Newark. I worked at Participant Media, launching content there. I won an Emmy with Joseph Gordon-Levitt. I corporately worked at Comcast where I started a streaming service called Seeso, which is comedy-only. It was the germ that became peacock eventually.

Although, I was shown the door from Comcast after a few years on my 50th birthday, and then I had to pivot my career and figure out what I wanted to do. What I realized is that I wanted to create. I got into the business of show to make things and I wanted to get back to that. That’s where my career as a cartographer came from. I make that map by hand and PowerPoint every month. I write every day. My business runs on the stuff that I create. I do a lot of strategy work with clients and thought leadership stuff but the heart and soul of the enterprise is what we make on an ongoing basis.

Creating Unique Content Vs. Competing

I consistently use the terms, I don’t compete, I create. That’s one of my biggest terms. You get into this crowded streaming space where you’re probably going to have some of the same content on five different platforms. Now, it becomes who’s the biggest platform that has that content and who’s going to make the most money? If you’re getting into that business of competing and you’re not creating, as you just said, all these things were rolled up your sleeves, bootstrapped them, got them off the ground, and created them.

You created something that wasn’t there. That is my number one thing when it comes to everything. The reason why we are having success early on from being an eight-month-old company in this space is because we’ve done cool stuff like tailgate shows with NFL teams that weren’t there. The East-West Shrine Bowl has been around for 100 years. You would think they would have live practices but they didn’t.

We created something that they’re going to go for with the East-West Shrine Bowl, hopefully, for 100 years. We got a contract for their practices. I won’t be here but they will still be playing. Talk about the power of creating something. Even the title that you use, it’s a title that you created. Talk about creating something that isn’t there.

I appreciate that and I love that take. Honestly, it’s hard to stand out if you spend all of your time fitting in. Many people are chasing whatever’s working somewhere else that the brand distinctions that made cable television like Bravo, ESPN, the Learning Channel, A&E, HBO and Adult Swim are all disappearing into this sameness or into this monoculture.

User-Centric Era Of Media

One of the biggest components, and Shawne, you embody this, is this new era of media. We’re in a new era of media where the user is at the center of everything. It’s the user-centric era. Not the gatekeeper or top-down era that was and ended a few years ago when everybody chased Netflix down the rabbit hole of no ads and all subscribers.

It isn’t necessarily always about scale. It can be about passion. My audience is not the biggest audience in the world but it’s the right audience. They respond to the unique content that we put out in the world. If you have the same content, brand, and audience as everybody else, you’re going to be commoditized.

To your point, Shawne, you’re always going to lose to Google, Meta, and Amazon. You’re never going to win the scale game. It’s never going to happen. Netflix isn’t going to win the scale game, but we’ll. They got 108 million people to watch the boxing match and they did pretty well on Christmas with those two games that they paid hundreds of millions of dollars for but the viewership was down 20% from those same two games on CBS in 2024. If everybody has football, which everybody does, how do you stand out?

We're in a new era of media where the user is at the center of it all. Share on X

Evan, I want to ask you and Shawne a question. It involves what you alluded to, which is the commoditization of content. In general, we’ve seen a huge commoditization of everything over time. I’m in my 40s and you’re well over 50. We were all growing up. I was playing basketball and Shawne was playing hoops and football. When we were playing sports growing up, we didn’t know what people were doing in that sport in other regions in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and even ‘90s. I grew up in Boston. In Boston, I didn’t know what guys were doing out in LA at the high school level. You would go to some tournaments like AAU tournaments.

It was usually your state, basically.

Similarly, the news was very different. The news that I would read in the Boston Globe or Boston Herald growing up, I’m sure, was different from the Seattle Times or whatever they were reading. People have access to the same content at the same time and it doesn’t matter where they are. I see where your mind’s going already, Evan, in the sense that content is then shaped by algorithms. Everybody has access to the same content but they’re getting pushed with specific content.

Unfortunately, it is the tiny little bubbles of misinformation. Fifty-percent of people under the age of 29 in the United States get most of their news from social media. We had the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Seattle Times, the Boston Globe, Time Magazine, and Newsweek, which were ostensibly different, but at the same time, we grew up with 3 or 4 channels where there were three nightly news and that was what our news was.

That’s why we all could formulate an opinion. It wasn’t the same opinion but it was based on a similar set of facts around Vietnam, Nixon, abortion, or whatever it was. There were in these tiny little silos and bubbles where the loudest voice is pretty much dictating the tenure of information. When you look at this society and how contentious it is, that has been driven by this fractionalization within our media and in particular within news.

Creators Standing Out In A Commoditized World

What I wanted to ask you was in a commoditized world, in a world driven by algos, how does a creator stand out? How do you get your message out there in a way that the algos appreciate? Before you answer, I have a quick thought. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. I’m not very active on other social platforms at this stage but I’m a LinkedIn Top Voice, whatever that means. I have a lot of followers on LinkedIn.

What I’ve noticed is, over the last couple of years especially, the content on LinkedIn has become very commoditized. The people with the most followers are running the same playbook. It’s obvious to me. It’s nothing original. They’re doing the same format and the same types of stories. That’s what’s drawing views. It incentivizes true creators to go with the herd because that’s what’s being rewarded by the algorithms. I’m wondering. How does a unique creator stand out in this crowded world?

I think Shawne pointed at it a while ago, the key is you have to be distinctive. You have to have a brand and a creative that is distinctive. It starts with that. Understand that I’m going to be true to these artistic or creative principles no matter what the market says and then find the right audience for that content. It may not be a billion people. My following on LinkedIn is 50,000 or 60,000 people. It’s not a million people. It’s not 10 million people. This is in the least self-aggrandizing way I can possibly mean it. I make a nice living because of the following.

People pay me to reach that following. I get amplified by LinkedIn and the algorithm as well. Ultimately, it’s about making what you need to make or must make that you would make even if you didn’t get paid and then building a community around that. Some will pay and some will watch with ads. It’s the combination of those. I get a good deal of my businesses appearing live in front of people and performing to a certain extent.

My combination of inputs comes from various different pathways within my community but it’s all based on the strength and pure passion my community has for the content I want to make and I need to make. Mr. Beast has a completely different model but it’s not different in its process. He makes what he wants to make and then he makes money off of it. He does it for the masses as opposed to me who is much more niche. Both of those two examples coexist in the creator economy. You have to understand where you lie in the continuum.

You talked about how distinguishing yourself as being different as the way to stick out. I always say, “We don’t compete. We create.” What do you think is next in this streaming space? For me, it’s fun. I like being a smaller guy because I can do things that no one else can. It was one of the biggest reasons why I launched the platform. We’re widely distributed on every CTV platform in Los Angeles. We got plenty of distribution but I still feel that I wake up in the morning and I get some information around and I have a conversation with somebody. I can try it that week.

For me, that is how I feel. If I can try it that week and if it doesn’t work, who cares? I don’t have any big boards to go to. I don’t have 10,000 people looking over my shoulder and saying, “You can’t do this. You can’t do that.” What do you think is next for the streamer to come and disrupt the market? What do you think is the next step?

The Future Of Creator-Led Content And Disruption

I think you’re going to see much more of the creator-led content invade these predominantly gatekeeper-led platforms. Podcasts on television is a good example of that. I also think that you’re going to see creators get much more into subscriptions. Predominantly, it’s been a click-per-view or brand deal type of relationship, so it’s advertising-based.

When you look at the products that the creators are selling, the memberships that they’re enacting on YouTube, and the clubs that they’re starting on Patreon, to me, that’s where things are going to go. You’re going to see creators become the niche cable channels of this era. That’s going to majorly disrupt this ecosystem.

Netflix had Jake Paul on who broke their platform. He broke it. That’s how popular he was. They then bought the Sidemen off of YouTube then Ms. Rachel. Now they’re talking about putting podcast videos on their platform. The creator economy or the creator-led content is disrupting. If they invade Netflix the way that it seems like they are going to, that’s a major disruption. That’s the market leader. They’re disrupting themselves but what it is creators disrupting the Hollywood ecosystem.

Now we're in tiny little silos and bubbles, where the loudest voice is pretty much dictating the tenor of information. Share on X

The Disruption Of Live Sports And Streaming

It was so funny to watch Netflix over and over again for the last several years claiming that they were going to get into live sports. I’m sitting back like, “It will be crazy not to,” because they have a bigger outreach. They have more traffic than anyone in the world. To get into live sports would almost be fitting.

They’ve got the football games and Jake Paul’s fight. They’re talking about podcasts. Who do you see is as a disruptor to Netflix? We’ve seen a few bundling packages over these last couple of years with streaming services in a way so they don’t kill each other off, compete, and try to buy the same customer, and everything else. What do you see next as far as that disruptor outside of the creators?

It’s two answers and neither is a small startup. They’re both major companies but one is YouTube. When you talk about the most audiences, Netflix pales in comparison to YouTube. YouTube is the number one television channel in the United States. It’s the number one video platform on the face of the Earth and the number one television channel in the United States. It is bigger than any other TV channel.

In 2024, they did $36.5 billion on YouTube in revenue. They own the NFL Sunday Ticket. They paid 150% more over the last contract to get that for a very specific reason. One of the big predictions I made for 2025 early on was the year of YouTube on TV, all over the planet. Not just in the United States. The second is Amazon. If Amazon can figure out how to make television work on their platform and they’ve not done that yet. If they can, Thursday Night Football is a good example. They have the NBA now. They’ve announced they are going to lean harder into sports and act less into scripted programming, which is an interesting choice.

The second part of that statement by their CEO was, “We’re going to sell other people’s channels.” They’re selling Apple TV+, Max, and pretty much everybody else’s channels on their platform. When that all comes to fruition, they become the new cable company because everyone you know has an Amazon subscription and none of them cancel it. It’s because of the free shipping, let’s be honest.

As they turn into a cable company with sports and all these channels you can buy and lump together in one bill along with these big sports. Netflix is going to have a hard time competing with both of those simultaneously. Netflix is bad at selling ads. They’re great at selling subscriptions but they announced 300 million subscriptions in the 4th quarter and they’re never reporting subscriptions again. That’s because they know the game is changing and they have to shift into a new model.

Overcoming Adversity: Career Setbacks And Personal Challenges

Evan, we’ve got about ten minutes left. I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about the fundamental principles of success and what you’ve learned in your career. I wanted to start by talking about things that you’ve overcome. When you were at Comcast and it didn’t work out optimally, you turned that into something great. Talk about either that lesson or another lesson where you experienced adversity and how you overcame it.

I did talk about that and the idea that I used, the kick-in-the-butt, not working out at Comcast. I had to pivot into a new thing. By the way, I’ve pivoted a number of times in my career and I’ve talked about that on this show. It was telling. A few years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer, follicular lymphoma. At that moment in time, when I got fired, I thought it was the end of my career and thought it was the worst thing that ever happened to me and then I got cancer.

I was like, “I haven’t been challenged at all. I’ve pretty much had it relatively easy my whole entire life.” I had a little bit of a challenge when I was a little kid but nothing anybody couldn’t overcome. Mike Tyson said, “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.” I’ve never been punched in the face. I have been but not like this. You don’t know how you’re going to react. You think you do and you hope you do.

When you get the diagnosis like that and you have challenges, I’ve had some pretty steep health challenges in 2024 in particular. All of 2024, I weighed 100 pounds. You don’t know how you’re going to show up. I like to think I handled it okay. I’m through the other side. Although, it will be something I live with for the rest of my life. I’m now without cancer visibly present.

I was able to maintain my optimism, my inner strength, and present to the world even though I looked crappy and felt like crap. I was able to present not just a brave face but a reason that this happened, what I learned from it, and what I thought could help us all learn from facing challenges. First, everything needs to be put in perspective. Secondarily, if you are true to your values your entire life when faced with challenges like this, it helps put things in perspective.

I’ll be living with it forever because follicular lymphoma never truly goes away but I don’t think about it, unless I’m asked a question. Since I’ve written about it and made an analogy about our industry about it, people come up to me and go, “How are you feeling?” That’s not why I did it but it is that human connection. When people come up to me and say, “Thank you for being honest about that and got you were going through because it helped me go through something similar, or it helped me talk about something similar that happened to me.” That’s my takeaway from the biggest challenge I’ve ever faced in my life.

That’s incredible. It’s inspiring to hear that you’ve been able to overcome it. I wanted to ask you also, in terms of being a creator, which you are, what are the qualities that set a good creator apart? For the younger generation where everybody wants to be an influencer and a creator, what advice would you give them to do it the right way?

The yin and yang of the two of you and the left brain and right brain that Shawne demonstrates, at least to me in this conversation. You look at the trajectory of the last number of years, specifically with this new enterprise. Someone said to me, “In this new economy, the artist is going to have to be the marketing person, the manager, the salesperson, and all these other things.” I was like, “Yes.”

That’s not terribly different from the artist who used to have to go try to get a record deal in the ‘70s or an independent filmmaker who had to go get their film finance. Until you get very successful, do all of those things. You’re going to have to understand how to size your audience, how to create an economy around that audience, market to the audience, and move into new platforms to expand your income so that you can continue to make. Isn’t that the point of it? We don’t sell because we want to sell. We sell so that we can make. Those two things are connected. They are reliant on each other.

In this new economy, the artist will have to be the marketer, manager, salesperson, and take on many other roles. Share on X

You have to have good programming and a way to monetize it. That’s the flywheel. You have to understand the rules of the game. You have to try to be all things. Be talented. Start there. I can’t help you if you’re not talented. I can help you if you are talented and can’t reach an audience, but you also have to be able to help yourself.

The Importance Of Consistent Creation And Discipline

Are there any habits or routines that you stick by in terms of your general life that you find helpful?

Makers make. I wake up every day and I write every day. People say, “How do you output it?” I’m like, “It’s my job. I take a break here and there.” Jack is not a dull boy. I play. At the same time, a writer writes. A painter paints. A thinker thinks. A doctor doctors. That’s what you do. It’s your job. Even when you’re not being paid for it, you should be creating.

A bunch of the cast members of Saturday Night Live all made money for free on TikTok and YouTube before they got hired. That’s how they got hired. A couple of those folks are also Nepo babies, and that also helps. At the same time, they wouldn’t have been hired if they didn’t have a body of work for Lorne to look at and go, “They’re the next Lonely Island. I can turn these folks into the next Lonely Island.” That is the lesson. Makers make. We don’t compete. We create.

Another way to frame that is it’s about being disciplined and getting the reps in. We talk about this a lot. Showing up is 80% or 90% of the battle. You said you write every day. I write a monthly column on venture capital every single month. I do that not because I need to. I do it for me in the sense that it forces me to think about what’s relevant, refine that, and then put it in a context that others can understand.

That’s why I teach. It’s certainly not the money. It is the forcing mechanism. It’s the steel on steel. I have to stand in front of a room of 50 kids who are paying way too much for their education and justify me being there. It’s scary as heck but I am better at it as a result of having done that.

This is the last question before we go. Do you have any parting thoughts, Evan, in terms of advice for your younger self or for those who are coming up in the industry?

Staying Adaptable In A Constantly Evolving Industry

Everything that has passed is also, to a certain extent, a prologue but the change is so constant. The only way to keep up with it is to wake up stupid every day as if you know nothing and look for something new to learn every single day. If you do that, it does accrue. It’s all additive. The wiser you get, the better at everything you will be. If you stand pat or you think you know everything, or you have a Fear Of Finding Out, FOFO, then you’re going to get stuck. That’s going to happen. Change is going to pass you right by and you’re going to say, “What the heck happened?”

Evan, I appreciate it. We got to get together again soon.

That’d be great. I’d love that.

I’m intrigued. I’ve always had ideas. I’ve worked with some of the biggest networks and streaming platforms in the world. It is crazy to say but I feel like I got the upper hand. It is the weirdest feeling. I don’t mean it to be patting myself on the back too much but it’s fun for me.

You’re not bogged down by the baggage. That’s what’s keeping the industry stuck as they’re stuck with their bags. You don’t have that. I don’t have that. Zack doesn’t have that. We can move forward because we can move light.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Me, too. Thank you.

Thanks, Evan. We’ll see you soon. Bye.

Important Links

• Zack Ellison on LinkedIn
• Zack Ellison on Instagram
• The 7 in 7 Show with Zack Ellison (podcast)
• Applied Real Intelligence (A.R.I.) website
• Shawne Merriman on LinkedIn
• Shawne Merriman on Instagram
• Lights Out Sports TV Website
• Lights Out Xtreme Fighting Website
• Evan Shapiro on LinkedIn
• Pluto TV
• Tubi
• Roku
• Samsung TV Plus
• DIRECTV
• Sling
• The Media Odyssey
• Channel 4
• Independent Film Channel
• SundanceTV
• Participant Media
• Comcast Corporation
• Seeso
• NFL Sunday Ticket

About Evan Shapiro

Since he created his Map of Media, Evan Shapiro has become known as the cartographer of the Media Universe. His maps, infographics, and ruminations are now widely quoted and used by businesses, executives, analysts, and colleges around the world. Using his very specific point of view, Shapiro charts Media’s future through his essays on his Media War & Peace Newsletter, and with his transformation agency, ESHAP. He also co-hosts The Media Odyssey podcast which has quickly become an industry touchstone.

His recent collaborations with Barb and Comscore are examples of how Shapiro hones data into sharp analysis of our industry with a raw authenticity that cuts through the din and generates debate across the ecosystem.

Shapiro is also an Emmy and Peabody Award winning producer of TV, films and podcasts, including Portlandia, This Film Is Not Yet Rated, Please Like Me, Comedy Bang Bang, Brick City, and Harmonquest.  He also serves as a professor at New York University’s Stern School of Business.